MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena New to Knife Making? Here's all the help you need ...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 7,846
I'd like to do it myself too. I've tried it but never was happy with the results. True, plastic impregnated wood may not be everyone's ideal but it is, in fact, the most successful method of stabilizing wood, bone, ivory, and horn. If someone can come up with a home brew alternative that achieves comparable results without the plasticky characteristics then I'm all for it even if it's a bit pricier. But, I say again that the criteria should be that some advantage is offered to both the maker and the customer. In my view, such an advantage would have to be a better price for equivalent results or else superior results no matter what the price. Just doing it so you can say you did it isn't worth the effort if the result is inferior. The original question here concerned Acraloid and that is a path that, up to this point, has led to the same dead end all the other home brew processes have. Perhaps Mike's recipe might be just what we're looking for but experience seems to indicate otherwise. I would rather see Mike try something new that has a prayer of success than see him waste time rehashing other people's already known failed attempts.

If - and I say IF because maybe others don't see it this way - we define 'stabilized' as meaning that the material in question will not absorb liquids (stabilized wood cannot be stained), and will not shrink or expand with normal environmental temperature and humidity changes then the professionally done acrylic impregnated materials are the only ones that can meet this definition. I still can't see why anyone would choose to use a 'stabilized' product that falls short of this definition when a better product is available. It certainly isn't necessary to use stabilized products and there is nothing more beautiful than a piece of wood finished by someone who really knows what he's doing. But, if you want stabilized wood there is no advantage to using something inferior especially if you plan to take take the blame for making it inferior.......


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Last edited by Ray Rogers; 12-29-2009 at 06:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-29-2009, 08:09 PM
DaveRuhlig's Avatar
DaveRuhlig DaveRuhlig is offline
Master
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 840
I just edited my post above to include the links to Ariel Salaveria's tutorials. If you all haven't already, please look at the links - especially the second one. He seems to have pretty good results with fairly low-tech inexpensive equipment.

I tend to agree with Ray and most others - the "perfect" material would have most of the characteristics of professsionally stabilized material with one exception - doesn't feel like a hunk of plastic. To my knowledege such a thing doesn't exist, but I'm convinced that someone around here will stumble on the recipe if we continue to encourage experimentation and share knowledge.

-Dave


__________________
www.ruhligknives.com

"The choice isn't between success and failure; it's between choosing risk and striving for greatness, or risking nothing and being certain of mediocrity." - Keith Ferrazi
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:07 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,139
David, were really not as far apart in our opinion as it seems. As I stated before, if I wanted to stabilize something like bone, antler, or ivory I would send it out to one of the two afore mentioned shops. My favorite method of home "stabilizing" wood with Linseed oil only works for solid hardwoods. It is more of sealing the wood all the way through but it will not harden spalted or soft woods well enough to use as handles. My feeling about Nelsonite is that it does the same thing as the Linseed oil treatment will do but at a much higher cost plus it takes for ever for Nesonite treated would to fume out; the Linseed oil will cure much faster.

My feeling is also that stabilization boarders on being the gemic of the day. Some woods are extremely stable as they come from the wood supplier. On the other hand other woods must be stabilized to be useful as knife handles. If I were to make handle out of ivory it would deffinantly go out for stabilzation. One, the material is far too expensive to use anything but tried and true methods.
Second, nasty things can happen to unstabilized ivory if mistreated, like accidentally leaving on the rear window shelf exposed to the sun on a hot day. Stabilization has it's place but it is frequently being over sold and I think that there are a lot of new newbies out there who think that this comes under the must do list.

You say that home stabilization is foolishly expensive and of poor quality. The same can be said of making wootz or tomahagane. It is also expensive and has a fairly high failure rate to try to make a product that is inferior to to modern steels. People do for the satisfaction of doing it themselves, not because it is cheaper or even makes sense.

As far as knife making being an art, I always looked on it as being an obcession.

Doug Lester


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-30-2009, 01:18 AM
DiamondG Knives's Avatar
DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dardanelle, Arkansas
Posts: 2,117
Send a message via Yahoo to DiamondG Knives
WOW, I had no idea this was such a diverse topic!

I agree with all the ideas on professionally stabilized wood. I want the best available for my customers. BUT, I also want to see what I can do on my own, guess its just the kid in me wanting to play!

I do not expect to achieve the results one can get with WSSI or K&G. As for price, Ive had the vacuum pump for several years, and the Acraloid was $35. What I AM hoping to be able to do is to be able to make a handle material that is water resistant, allows for the natural beauty of the wood to show, and is something I can reproduce with good results. I am focusing on a mid range affordable kitchen line that while from quality materials can be produced at a price that isnt scary to home cooks. Will I succeed? Hopefully, will it be the absolute best product for this application, probably not. But it is something that will pass my quality control in areas of durability, and water resistance that will work well in a kitchen environment. I don't think I am looking for the magic bullet here, just hoping that I an reproduce something that has a reasonable balance between performance and beauty while not being cost prohibitive.

I have a large collection of un stabilized wood that I will try a portion my way and if it don't work, then to the pros it goes!

I will try to be as scientifically objective as possible on this and will record my results. I like Ray have no ambition to re invent the wheel or fall off the track at the same place as others have, and greatly appreciate all the input, both positive and negative.

Having said all this i want to ask you folks about some additives to the soup.

Would Danish oil mix with acetone? And in doing so would it lose any of its hardening properties?

Im going to be playing with the acraloid and wood hardener, but thinking that I may add to it a bit, and play with the volumes also.

Again, lets keep bouncing ideas around! And all comments and opinions are more than welcome!!

Ill post as things develop!

Thanks and God Bless
Mike


__________________
"I cherish the Hammer of Thor, but I praise the hand of God"
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-30-2009, 09:07 AM
Cal Ganshorn's Avatar
Cal Ganshorn Cal Ganshorn is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Saskatchewan,Canada
Posts: 76
Danger

I wish you luck.
Before I put anything in the oven at 180 degrees with explosive vapors in contact with an element I would make sure my insurance is paid up and have the local fire departmant on stand by and send the wife and kids shopping for the afternoon.
This is the voice of experience talking. The oven will be filled with acetone and methylmethacrylate fumes and could possibly (will most likely)ignite and it is not a pretty site.

I have stabalized a couple thousnad pieces of wood and here is my MASON jar that gets placed in a large tube of boiling water to cook the wood.




Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-30-2009, 02:43 PM
DiamondG Knives's Avatar
DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dardanelle, Arkansas
Posts: 2,117
Send a message via Yahoo to DiamondG Knives
Carl
Thank you for the safety input!

These chemicals are not to be used without the proper precautions!!! PERIOD!

I really like your "Mason" jars.

Would you consider sharing your process? Or at least your stabilizing recipe?

Thanks again for your words of wisdom on the subject!

God Bless
Mike


__________________
"I cherish the Hammer of Thor, but I praise the hand of God"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-30-2009, 03:57 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,139
I don't think that I'd cut Danish oil with acetone just because it's an oil and not a polymer disolved in a solvent, primarily acetone. If anything I'd use turpentine, thin an oil with an oil. If I was going to the expense of Danish oil I'd just let the wood soak under vacuum. The Danish oil, like Linseed oil will polymerize as it cures.

As far as this topic generating so much controversy, surely you must know that that if you get three knifemakers together you're going to get at least four opinions on just about any subject.

Doug Lester


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-01-2010, 05:32 PM
B.Finnigan's Avatar
B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Near Rainier WA
Posts: 1,989
For less then $50 I have been doing my own stabilizing with great results. If I sent my wood out I would probably change my mind and want to use another before it came back. I have cut the chunks in half and drilled them out for hidden tangs and I am getting full saturation. It usually takes 5-7 depending on the wood.

I hope we all continue to experiment and tweak existing processes. That is how new techniques and products come onto the scene. If we just sit back and let a couple people tell us "this is the only way to do it" then we might as well just use a knife making book from 100 years ago with the existing knowledge from that time.

Too many times I have gone "out of the box" and found the prevailing forum attitude/opinion to be not quite the complete truth. Just the opinion of a hand full of people. Over the years I have seen prevailing forum opinion change due to a few who tried something new.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:08 PM
DiamondG Knives's Avatar
DiamondG Knives DiamondG Knives is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dardanelle, Arkansas
Posts: 2,117
Send a message via Yahoo to DiamondG Knives
I fully agree on thinking outside the box. Just dont want to run off the track at the same place as other folks. This is why I feel it is so important to compare notes and ask advise. We all are standing on the shoulders of others in this craft, or at least I know I am!

Thanks for the encouragment Brian!


__________________
"I cherish the Hammer of Thor, but I praise the hand of God"
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-02-2010, 10:38 PM
boatbuilder's Avatar
boatbuilder boatbuilder is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alberta
Posts: 345
Send a message via AIM to boatbuilder
Resinol 90C

Does anyone know where to purchase Resinol 90C.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:11 AM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 7,846
You can get Resinol 90C from Craig Ryan at phone # 623-412-1899 e-mail craig.ryan@loctite.com It is sold in 4 gallon containers for $300 and I believe that includes shipping Of all the home brew chemistry Resinol is surely the best. The only problem is you must mix the whole batch at one time and then keep it refrigerated. After that, I think the official word is that it can be kept for about 8 weeks but some people have reported keeping it successfully for much longer .....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!





Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-03-2010, 10:58 PM
boatbuilder's Avatar
boatbuilder boatbuilder is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alberta
Posts: 345
Send a message via AIM to boatbuilder
Thanks Ray. I sent Craig an email and will try to call tomorrow.

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:42 AM
Jon Kennedy Jon Kennedy is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spicer, Minnesota
Posts: 81
stabilizing Recipe!!

sounds like most of you guys already have vacuum chambers and do a lot of work trying to figure out what works the best,I have been there and done that also! save you're self some head scratching and use the ZK-TR90 resin and you can stabilize blanks on youre own cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with great results!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:43 AM
Jon Kennedy Jon Kennedy is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Spicer, Minnesota
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbuilder View Post
Does anyone know where to purchase Resinol 90C.
I can buy it but have switched to ZK-TR90 due to cost!!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
antler, bee, forge, hobby, kit, kits, knife, knife making, knives, resin, resinol, resinol 90c, stabilizing, supply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
52100 Heat Treat Recipe DiamondG Knives Heat Treating and Metallurgy 8 10-27-2009 11:32 PM
A2 heat treat recipe cliff fendley Heat Treating and Metallurgy 9 10-03-2009 10:34 PM
Favorite HT recipe Andrew Garrett Heat Treating and Metallurgy 6 02-24-2009 04:15 PM
ATS34 Heat Treating Recipe SHostetler Heat Treating and Metallurgy 1 02-27-2007 11:35 PM
Transfer Solution Recipe paintor Fine Embellishment 0 06-07-2006 08:50 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
CKK Industries, Inc. All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved