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  #1  
Old 04-28-2021, 08:50 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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Ribbon burner in a vertical forge?

My google-fu hasn't turned up much more than subjects of either or. Nothing utilizing a ribbon burner in a vertical forge. Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of why it is/isn't a good idea.

I getting a couple empty refrigerant tanks and thought I'd make 1 into a vertical forge

Thank in advance for any help or insight
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Old 04-29-2021, 08:38 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Likely the reason you don't find much via internet searching, is because a ribbon burner in a vertical forge is WAY overkill in terms of time/materials/complexity, and cost to operate.

Not saying it not doable/useful, its just that most prefer/do go the route of a single, correctly sized blown burner. It's just all round simpler/easier to build, takes less time to assemble install, and uses far less fuel in a vertical forge application.



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Old 04-29-2021, 02:12 PM
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I see. I was under the impression the ribbon burner was a more efficient burner design. And that was the only reason for my contemplating using one. I guess proper application is key in this situation.
I may still toy with a ribbon in a horizontal forge build. But one project at a time fore or o just make a mess 😆
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Old 04-29-2021, 02:32 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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Hadn't realized the pic was a link to the pictures for your build. Thank for that.
The one ill be building will be much smaller. Is that 100% castable. I'm thinking of going kastolite 30. I don't have any experience with insulating castables as of yet. But it seems to be the one people are using.
My current forge is an 8x24 stove pipe with 2" of kaowool covered in satanite with hard bricks In the bottom. Only has a single blown burner. It works. But it's alot to heat up when I'm just making smaller knives. So I thought a small vertical would be the way to go.
Anywhere. Thank you again for your help and the pics. Gives me a better idea on the necessities I'll be needing
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Old 04-30-2021, 07:24 AM
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Compared to a venturi, a ribbon burner is far more efficient... which is often the comparison folks tend to make. Don't take me wrong! A ribbon burner is hard to beat for the amount of heat it can produce, but as with everything we use/do in Bladesmithing....there's a "give-n-take". In order for a ribbon burner to produce the amount of heat it does....it requires a huge VOLUME of fuel. I capitalize that word, because I suspect someone will jump in and say how they run a ribbon burner at a low PSI.... which is a very different thing.

I've built forges that are completely castable refractory, and those that are "hybrids", using both ceramic fiber blanket, and castable. The forge in the images is that.... 1 layer of 1" thick X #8 density ceramic fiber blanket next to the exterior wall, and 2 1/2" thick Kastolite 3000F refractory.
Keep in mind that if you choose to build a full castable forge, the refractory needs to be AT LEAST 3" thick. That's the general requirement to achieve the products full insulation value. Let's say you use a "pipe" that is 10" in diameter, and line it with 3" of castable..... that only leaves you an interior space of 4". When I built the forge in the pics.... I cut the pipe lengthwise, and added in enough so that when the castable was installed, I have 16" of interior space to work with. It just all depends on what each individual needs/wants. For me, I want to produce as large a billet of Damascus as possible. Right now I'm only limited by what my old, broken down body will let me lift/carry/forge/handle. It's not uncommon for me to forge Damascus billets for "cans" that weight 30-40 lbs.

Remember is talked about "give-n-take"? In the case of castable forges, the take a LONG time to heat up. The completed forge in those pics take at least 1 full hour to reach 2350F. But because of the thermal mass, once there, I can dial back the fuel PSI and it will hold/run at that heat all day long. The other thing you need to be aware of with castable forges is cool down.... you don't want to just shut everything off and walk away! You might get lucky for a while and have not issues.... but because these type of forges hold heat so well, they can destroy blowers is the heat gets to them (that's why the blower should always be hanging down as in the pics), of cause anything nearby to combust. I shut the gas off, and leave the blower running until my pyrometer reads less then 900F...... then it's usually safe to shut the blower off.

One last thing.... as a full time Bladesmith, I've always found it best to have two (or more) different forges in the shop. A small, kawool forge with a venturi burner, that can be used for quick or small jobs (non-welding), and then the castable/welding forge. Used when I plan a full day of making Damascus.

Best of luck with it! Don't hesitate to jump on my forum with any questions!


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Old 04-30-2021, 03:28 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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Ed, not to highjack the tread but I'm glad to see that there are days that you can spend a day in the forge. I remember when you were complaining that there were days that you were stuck on the couch.

Doug


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Old 04-30-2021, 04:57 PM
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Hi Doug!

I still have those days, but thanks to good Docs, and monthly infusions of the Lupus drug Benlysta, I can function most of the time.....just generally slower than I used to.


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Old 05-02-2021, 08:43 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Glad for you Mr. Caffrey. May God Bless you.
My brother built a forge using propane and compressed air with a regulator and even Oxygen. It became a foundry and scared us. We learned a couple of things including how to control the heat.
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:06 AM
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Whew! the words "compressed air" and "oxygen" in the same sentence with "forge" can be very scary. I've personally seen shops and homes destroyed when those got away from people.


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Old 05-04-2021, 11:43 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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It was built inside his old coke forge with a giant hood and plenty of fire extinguishers. We did not run O2 the same time as compressed air, but my brother wanted to be able to melt a high titanium aluminum bronze for sand casting. It was scary how hot it became and it melted the Al-bronze, but the castings were never very good.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:00 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is online now
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Every time I read of O2 and open flame I think of a patient in the hospital I worked in who decided he had to have a cigarette while is was wearing an oxygen mask. Some things just don't go together well.

Doug


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Old 08-29-2021, 08:39 PM
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HI all, I know I'm a new member and this is an old thread but mostly I hope I'm not going to stir up a hornet's nest.

Ed: I assume you're using the same blown ribbon burner plans by John Emerling, published by ABANA and currently on Wayne Coe's web site. Or a version. yes? How many feet of dragon's breath is blowing out the ends of your forge?

Fuel burning OUTSIDE the forge is not only wasted money but is dangerous as putting your head in the oven. CO poisoning is cumulative and takes something like 80 times as long to flush from your blood as it takes to build.

I looked at the plans on Wayne's site and there are a couple basic design flaws that make it both inefficient and ineffective. There is no reason to put the diffusion plate to close to the air fuel inlet in the plenum. As called for in the plans it REQUIRES a blower with high static pressure to work at all.

The fuel air mix that gets to the plenum is moving at really high velocity meaning you have to pump a LOT OF FUEL through it to keep the flame from blowing off the outlet nozzles.

I've seen numerous videos posted by guys bragging about how hot their ribbon burner forges get and they do get hot. A few actually brag about the 3-4 FEET of flame blowing out the openings!

A ribbon burner is only one shape of multiple outlet burner and I won't change the term for purposes of discussion. They are common everywhere, from your gas range to glass artist's glory hole furnaces. They are everywhere and they are mostly "Naturally Aspirated" (NA) That means no blower supplying air. Commonly called "venturi" burners.

I put together NARB (Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner) to see if I was right and it was successful far beyond my expectations. I experimented with wood burner blocks, I only needed to watch test blocks burn for a few seconds to read the flame, wood lasted about 15 seconds before burning wood completely distorts the flame making it unreadable for propane flame properties. Make sense?

Prototyping in wood showed me that putting the intake directly above and inline with the outlets naturally made the center flames much larger and the outer ones burn back into the plenum for lack of velocity.

I mounted the inlet in the side of the plenum and eliminated the problem in any significant sense. The center flames are a little larger but not enough to make a difference. I don't do perfect, I'm a blacksmith and tinkerer.

I found the right number of crayon size outlets to balance the fuel air flow without requiring silly high pressure. What surprised me is how much better a T burner works screwed into a ribbon burner.

I use a thread protector on my T burners as a step flare rather than put a flare on them, I get thread protectors from the corner plumbing supply by the bucket to take them off their hands. I used one of my trusty hole saws to make the port in the plenum and welded a thread protector to it. I just screw a T burner on and light it up.

Testing the thing I discovered it is stable from stop to stop on my old 0-20psi regulator. The problem running silly low psi is there isn't enough flow through the nozzles to keep the burner block from reaching ignition temp of the fuel air mix causing it to burn back into the plenum. I've also run it to max psi on a 0-30 psi regulator and it maintains a smooth stable flame but holy moly!

If any of you wonder about my bonafides, I know my poop. I've been making NA burners for probably 30-35 years. If you've heard of the "Frosty T" burner. It's my burner, I'm that Frosty.

I hope I'm not breaking a rule but I'm just going to post the threads I started on Iforgeiron. The first one is about NARB and how I developed it. The second is a pair of NARBs in my latest too large propane forge. My next one will be very different but NARB fired. We can talk about forges too if you'd like.

Frosty.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/480...r-photo-heavy/

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/48314-narb-lives/
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  #13  
Old 08-30-2021, 01:23 PM
KenH KenH is offline
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Hello Frosty, Welcome to the group. I've read your posts on the "Iforgeiron" form and always found something good.

I've built a blown forge with a lot of help from Ed. I built it from a 30lb propane tank with the burner coming in from side angled up and rearward to cause the flame to swirl. Works good - with a 12" billet it will be an even red from end to end with no hotspots.

These forums are a really great source of information - the internet is a wonderful thing {g}

Ken H>
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Old 09-01-2021, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Ed: I assume you're using the same blown ribbon burner plans by John Emerling, published by ABANA and currently on Wayne Coe's web site. Or a version. yes? How many feet of dragon's breath is blowing out the ends of your forge?
I DO NOT use any ribbon burners. I run my wleding forge with a single, correctly sized blown burner. As I said in my post.... the burner I use is significantly more fuel efficient than a ribbon burner, and just better suited to my needs/uses.

That's not at all to say I dislike ribbon burners, as with anything, they are great in their proper place. Ribbon burners are high volume, low pressure burners. The reason I don't use them is simple.... it was/is much simpler to build a circular forge body that uses a single tube (pipe) entering at a tangent. I actually help a friend build a vertical circular forge with a ribbon burners.... it was a real pain to get both tangent and the angle to achieve a swirling flame pattern.

I've experimented with a number of ribbon burners, and as with everything we do in Bladesmithing, it has it's "give-n-takes". For me I just simply prefer a single blown burner in my welding forge.


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Old 09-02-2021, 07:44 AM
KenH KenH is offline
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Good to see you back Ed - it's been a while since you posted and I was starting to get worried about you.

I agree with you on the blown burner for a forge. I've never used a ribbon burner but the forge I built (with your guidance) works good. I can't imagine anything being better. It's about 15" inside, and a 10" billet will be an even color from end to end with no bright or dull spots. That's pretty good in my mind.

Ken H>
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