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  #136  
Old 04-01-2015, 09:37 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Sam you are right in principle and separating your thread from this one makes sense. However, the free-ranging discussion in this line is what ultimately led to the unification theory. Had we separated this line into its eight or ten individual subject matter components, we may never have gotten the necessary collaborative input ... But now that the basic thesis is out there let's do separate the offshoots.

Notice below in the "Delrin Handles.." line we broke out a number of different sub lines, "cronology of escutheon plates," "Dating Bowies - coolie caps history," "mysterious model-3 sheaths." All of these lines were first fully explored in the original "Delrin handles" discussion which also internally contained a detailed chronology of Model 3 knives during the 1958-1963 period...perhaps the most detailed study using documented knifes ever.

My instinct is to let the conversation flow, because one never can tell where it will lead. Who would have thought that a presentation about repair of the eboney-handle of an old model 1 knife with a randall stamp on the sheath, would spawn all that was discussed in this line.

Regards...

PS: a charge of "stolen valor" among vets is a serious issue... and it must be answered. LRRP6 had read the story as being a claim that the events in the "Magic Randall" were 100 percent my real personal experience.

It is flattering that the story is so believable as to seem truly biographical. However, his misconception (and he was not the only one!-my bad) is so potentially onerous to me that there is an absolute need to make sure the context of the story, and my personal experience, is understood. The record had to be set straight.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-01-2015 at 09:53 AM.
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  #137  
Old 04-01-2015, 09:43 AM
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Agreed Jack. I am just concerned and sensitive about diversion tactics. I cut my teeth on that, relatively unscathed, on another forum.
I agree with your logic here.

Thanks

Sam G
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  #138  
Old 04-01-2015, 09:55 AM
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I also see that this thread has almost 28,000 views! Some people are paying attention!
Great Job.

Sam
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  #139  
Old 04-01-2015, 10:04 AM
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Moosehead Moosehead is offline
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Hi Jack and Sam!

Please don't let these silly diversions bother you.

Some folks just don't have a sense of humour.

For instance I was recently "channeling" Lord Raglan, the British Army?s Commander-in-Chief at the "Charge of the Light Brigade" during the Crimean War o(1854-56) and he is still outraged at the literary liberties taken by George MacDonald Fraser in his 1973 novel "Flashman at the Charge"

Cheers!

David


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  #140  
Old 04-01-2015, 10:29 AM
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Absolutely no bother.
We are focused on the subject at hand.
I wish someone would channel Bo. That would straighten all this out.
But then we wouldn't be exercising our keen sense of observation

Sam
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  #141  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:12 PM
LRRP6 LRRP6 is offline
 
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For Sam

From Sam: This thread is about the sheaths, and I can't help but question the motives of people who don't want to contribute to a subject with either agreeing with or opposing an observation. They instead want to go after the researcher personally. And why is it, as I found on the other forum in my case, do these people use code names and not their own?
Sam G[/QUOTE]

Sam, Jack explained his point of view as to his joke and so did I. Sorry it upset you. And the reason some of us don't give out our real names on these forums is that we are still active in the field...
So now, we can get back to the thread...
To Jack: I keep a hooch in the swamp about four hours away from NOLA, near Catahoula ....it's well stocked with firewater and firepower....we should chat sometime about some mutual acquaintances....I will send you a PM on this net...best to you Brother, and thanks to Sam also for his service as a sailor...
Out here, LRRP6
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  #142  
Old 04-02-2015, 03:19 PM
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Thanks for the clarification and your service LRRP6.
Sam
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  #143  
Old 04-07-2015, 06:00 PM
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Jack, perhaps this post adds yet another piece to the grand unification theory. Let me know what you think.

I posted this as a new thread on the other forum.

I was reading the Heiser v Johnson thread over on the other forum, and Ron Mathews brought up something about a "tooled edge" on the heiser-HKL sheaths, so I began researching that small detail of the sheaths.

I broke out my Randall books and started looking specifically at the front edge of the sheaths, all the way around from the throat, down and back up to the other edge at the throat. Front of sheath only.

I want to clarify that the edge groove that we see on the belt loop and hone flap on heisers are considered embellishment, it is decorative.

What I am referring to is what has been referred to as a "tooled edge" that is left by the sewing process on the edge of the sheath next to the stitch line.

All of the Randall sheath makers including Moore,Heiser,Johnson and Sullivan's took an edging tool and beveled that edge for contour(See photo, page 245 Sheldon's book demonstrating Greg Gutcher of Sullivan's holster shop edging a sheath). It takes the sharpness off.

My focus here is on Heiser sheaths, because it appears Moore, Johnson and Sullivan's all beveled the front of their sheaths throughout their relationship with Randall knives.

If you look into the history of Heiser sheaths, the earliest of them are like the one that Mitchell referenced in the Antique Road show clip of the WW2 Fighter.
There is also one in Hunts book Randall Military Models page 121 & 259. It appears to have a beveled edge. It also lacks the edge embellishment that I mentioned earlier.

Soon after, we see the emergence of the Heiser sheath with throat rivets. This is apparently to add strength to the throat. The edge beveling continues.

Then we see the absence of the throat rivets, but the addition of what I will refer to as a reinforcement stitch. At the throat, where the stitch line ends, the stitch doubles back for about 1/2". We see this reinforcement stitch from then on.

Its possible that Heiser quit using the rivets as perhaps a clever person figured out that if they used a reinforcement stitch, it would eliminate the need for the rivet. Saving cost and labor.

This change also brought about another change that we see only on these rivetless sheaths, and that is the disappearance of the beveled front edge. Why? Perhaps by leaving that edge square, instead of beveled, it strengthened the stitched edge. By beveling it, the worker that did the beveling came very close to nicking the stitches. I have actually seen missing stitches on some beveled edges, a result of perhaps nicking the stitch.

So perhaps cautionary measures, but also it saved labor. Time needed to bevel that edge.

Of interest is the reinforcement stitch at the throat. There are 3 orientations:

1) Both are inside the main stitch line
2) Both are outside the main stitch line
3) One is inside & One is outside the main stitch line.

I have observed all 3 scenarios.

This reinforcement stitch with no beveled edge continued for Heiser and Heiser-HKL thru the RMK era as well.

So far my front bevel observations have been:

1) Earliest Heiser with single stitch line terminating at throat with front edge bevel.

2) Heiser throat rivets with front edge bevel.

3) Heiser post throat rivet era with added reinforcement stitch, and no front edge bevel

4) West and horizontal stamped RMK brown button sheaths have reinforcement stitch, and no beveled edge.

5) East facing stamped RMK brown button sheaths,including baby dot sheaths, display inside reinforcement stitch and a beveled edge.

Also of note with the east facing RMK stamped sheaths,including baby dots, my observations so far indicate that Johnson placed that reinforcement stitch to the both inside orientation, protecting the stitch from the beveling tool.

Perhaps this is another way to distinguish the 2 sheath makers in the transitional period.

Any ideas or other observations?

Thanks

Sam Granade
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  #144  
Old 04-07-2015, 07:25 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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A strong case is made with photos - Plato, 350 BC.

Sam, when you have major observable differences that are obvious and that have been shown to be applicable and accurate over 95 percent of the cases in a spectrum, why continue to look for smaller and smaller features that may or may not be different? In my opinion, doing that may simply degrade the value of the big picture by examining individual trees rather than the forest.

The more minute the feature, the more likely it could be the result of an individual sheath maker's quirk, or an off shoot of a short run of sheaths when something was different, etc. Just leave it as it is. No one has shown any data that refutes the basic major defining features of the two groups of sheaths which include:

(1) the orientation of the stamp;
(2) the position of the keeper snap;
(4) the stitching, especially in the butterfly; and (as you pointed out)
(3) the fonts of the model and length numbers.

There are some other traits that have been pointed out that are generally applicable, but they are an add to the main argument... they do not make a case by themselves.

I doubt anyone is going to post research that refutes the basic structural and timing of the divisions of the Grand Unification Theory ... because the divisions ARE correct and supported by overwhelming data. Absent an even more extensive study that refutes the basic premis, all that someone can do is show some exceptions, and there will always be exceptions. But exceptions do not make a rule, hundreds of examples make a rule, and those have been posted.

Interesting though... this has prompted me to look at Heiser-logo sheaths. Guess what... there are at least six different fonts and sizes of numbers, some of which appear to have been used either simultaneously or at least within a very close time period. Perhaps someone has cataloged those fonts and arrangement of numbers on the Heiser-logo sheaths ... but now I've got a pretty good base of information on Heiser-fonts that I'm just not very interested in. Why don't you start a line strictly about Heiser-logo sheaths?

However, I recommend just leaving the Heiser/H-K-L vs Johnson division alone now. More minutia just gives some a target to prattle about while they ignore or refuse to address the main features (and timing) that differentiate the two groups.

PS: The counter arguments to the grand unification theory mostly postulated by one person on the other board are pretty unsupported. Or they are presented without any data at all. Indeed it is a little difficult to know exactly what those people are proposing becaue the contradictions in their statements are so obvious. [i](Perhaps some may be just trying to maintain their perceived monopoly on dating Randalls from that era, but are just digging a pretty strange hole, (bless their hearts).

However, you will change no minds over there. I recommend let this subject lie. If you post over there, just post facts backed up by many pictures, do not get drawn into a "he-said she-said" argument.

In the long run, truth usually wins out, and if the grand unification theory is incorrect, someone will eventually post a study that shows it. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm open to it. Regards.

Last edited by BoBlade; 04-23-2015 at 08:09 AM.
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  #145  
Old 04-07-2015, 08:16 PM
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Very good and valid points Jack, when the "tooled edge" was posed in the other forum, and it was incorrectly identified as being a tooled edge in fact, it was appearant that it was relative unresearched ground. And while it may be small in an area of overall importance, it is a construction feature that was changed. And changed for a reason. A small subtle change I grant you, but a change nonetheless. A change that perhaps makes another defining difference.

The act of beveling the sheath may be of minor significance to the average collector, but I guarantee you it was significant to the sheath maker. We will see if it holds water. In the observations that I put out there, it was from every source that I could find about it. The differences are clear at this point. I don't think you will find many exceptions out there. Beveling the edge though probably not too labor intensive, still had to be done with a level of skill to avoid severing the stitches.

I guess my opinion differs from yours just a bit Jack, in that the edging characteristics brings just a little more knowledge to the plate for anyone who may be interested. If they are not, then they will move on to another area of interest.

I do understand your point that more details just provides more to dispute, fogging everything up, but I believe the number font differences was solid, as I think the edge beveling will be too. Less obvious than a stamp orientation for sure, but a distinction nonetheless.

If you would rather I not use this thread to expand the characteristic differences I can do that. No problem. I think that no matter how large or small the differences are, they accumulate. Also, no matter how large or small the observation, there will be exceptions.

Regards

Sam Granade
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  #146  
Old 04-22-2015, 12:09 AM
Sligo Sligo is offline
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Jacknola what a wonderful "inspiring delight" story or saga and you are quite right about the Cold War I did my thesis on Patrice Lumumba at Columbia U New York ... The subject of the Cold War came up about three months ago and two 30 yr. olds did not know what I was talking about.
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  #147  
Old 04-23-2015, 08:59 AM
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Hi Sligo!

Welcome to the Knife Network!

You're quite right. Jack spins a fantastic tale that does more that do justice to the incredible history of Randall Made Knives.

As far as the "Cold War" goes, unfortunately there are still some who have no desire to see it come to an end amongst the world of Randall enthusiasts.

I can only hope that folks will put past grudges and perceived grievances behind them so we can all join in sharing what should be an enjoyable hobby. Come on in the water's fine.

I look forward to your future participation.

Cheers!

David


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  #148  
Old 04-23-2015, 11:54 AM
Sligo Sligo is offline
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Thanks Moose for the hearty welcome !
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  #149  
Old 04-24-2015, 09:58 AM
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Hello David,

I agree 100% about the Cold war and contention. There was enough of that on the other forum!

I certainly did not mean to get that far along in the "sheath debate" if that is what you want to call it...and I suppose if my ego and pride not gotten in the way, it would have come to rest long ago with yet another good observation effectively thrown in the trash. I wasn't going to let that happen.

At least there is record for many to see if they choose to.

Another member that I talk with reminded me of a good quote from Tommy Lee Jones, in the mini series Lonesome Dove, he said "I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it."

I look forward to this forum where observations are valued and discussed.

Welcome to the forum Sligo.

Regards, Sam
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  #150  
Old 04-24-2015, 01:07 PM
Sligo Sligo is offline
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Thanks Sam !
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