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  #1  
Old 04-03-2015, 09:41 AM
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samg samg is offline
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Heiser-HKL and Johnson RMK sheath differences

I have started this specific thread, so we can openly explore the differences between Heiser-HKL and Johnson made RMK sheaths.

An obvious way that we are exploring that is with the RMK stamp orientation and number stamp style ( serif-non serif).

Our research has led thus far to an indication that:

Early West and Horizontally oriented stamped sheaths with serif number stamps were made by Heiser-HKL. Evidence of that are 2 sheaths that are documented with provenance to be of 1960 manufacture. One sheath with West stamp orientation, the other Horizontal orientation. Both with serif number stamps. 1960 proves Heiser-HKL manufacture, as Johnson, according to Gary Randall was not found until 1962.

So that research is ongoing, and identifying a maker by stamp orientation and number style seems a good easy, fool proof way to do it.

For me, as we know that Johnson, in the 20 years of making baby dot sheaths seemed to prefer stamping with east orientation and non serif number stamps. If you want your sheaths to be different and easy to distinguish from Heiser, what better way? The truth may be right under our nose with this.

That leads me to this new thread.

I would like to explore the differences in the the 2 sheath makers work, outside of the stamps and numbers.

Jack, I see you braved posting on the other forum, and you were met with an example of a model 7 that was attributed to Johnson, though it has a west stamp and serif number stamps.

My question is, it was noted that the sheath was mottled, you know, those irregular blotchy spots on the sheath. I am beginning to research that claim to see if its valid that a Johnson " tell" is the mottling on the sheath. I have been told by a saddle maker that leathermen purchased their hides from suppliers who bought the hides from different sources around the country. If that is true, how can one distinguish one maker from the other based on the texture of the hide, especially one that was worked 50+ years ago, if sheath makers got their hides from suppliers that purchased from all over the country?

Is Mottling something that manifests itself when the sheath is dyed, or as a result of aging?

I am extending my research to include claims by the other "camp" that Heiser-HKL and Johnson made sheaths can be distinguished by certain characteristics.

So if anyone, even those in the other "camp" would like to join this dialog, it would be great! But I caution you, please stick to the evidence, and remember, if a certain characteristic is being attributed to Johnson, that we also see that characteristic in Heiser, it can't be considered a "tell".
I asked for this of an expert in the other forum, and was met with, its all there in the threads! Over 300 threads!

Guys, why not make a condensed, concentrated thread that can be easily referenced, without sifting thru years of threads. Trust me, I have reviewed many of them, but if opinions have changed due to updated evidence, why not dedicate a thread to it?

It has been suggested that some tells are:

1) Johnson sheaths display mottling, those irregular shaped dark splotches.

2) Johnson made belt loops display a thicker/heavier belt loop, indicating thicker hide.

3) The dies used to stamp out the sheaths are different.

4) Stitch count, or type of thread used.

5) Shape or stitching of the butterfly

Or, as presented by another expert:

1. Leather type
2. Leather mottling
3. Stitching on front
4. Stitching on butterfly
5. Lack of edge tooling
6. Different die used to cut sheath
7. Lack of throat flair


These are a few. Let's explore those differences.

Thanks

Sam

Last edited by samg; 04-03-2015 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 04-03-2015, 02:29 PM
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Here is a response to these observations with pictures:

1. Leather type: No different than many known Heisers ( Each company had different leather lots that varied in condition irrespective of the tanning process. I've seen the most inconsistence with Heiser / HKL).
2. Leather mottling: Heiser had it. Look at photos below.
3. Stitching on the front: I see no difference between the stitching on your example sheath and a number of known Heisers!
4. Stitching on the butterfly: Ditto!
5. Lack of edge tooling: It's there if you look hard enough.
6. Different die to cur sheath cuts. The two 3-6 sheaths below are not cut from the same die many others were (I should know).
7. Lack of throat flairs: For the most part those went away in the early 50's. Again, look at my examples below:

Good answers, and what it illustrates is that there are variables with both makers that overlap, common. After all, making a sheath should be very similar between the 2 makers. Johnson used Heiser examples.

The reason that this topic has been debated for so long IMO, is that there are similarities that crossover between the two. Some pretty smart people with great skills of observation have been at work on this for some time.

As to the die cut, as frugal as Bo was with his supplies and resources, would it not make sense that Bo could have had some of the dies returned by Heiser-HKL, so Johnson could use them, to save expense? Or did Heiser only have one die for each model sheath? Just speculation. Who knows?

As many examples have been pointed out illustrating both ways, I contend that the fly in the ointment to some, but simply an observation to me as stated many times, and unapposed by the other side of this debate, is the observation of west and horizontal RMK stamped brown button sheaths with serif number stamps, as used by Heiser for years, and east facing RMK stamped brown button sheaths, with non serif number stamps, as Johnson used for years. With 1960 providence to back it up. How much simpler or obvious or clear can it possibly be?

The other camp will not answer this simple fact. Why? All I asked is that examples be provided that counter my observations. I am not vested in the outcome of this debate, I just want to see Randall history be as accurate as it can be. Not just say, "Its simpler this way" Implying that if its RMK stamped, its Johnson. Is that way in the best interest of Randall History?

With Ron Mathews pointing out the stamp number style differences to me, can anyone bring up a thread anywhere on these forums that specifically discussed the relationship of RMK stamp orientation with number stamp style? That serif numbers are observed with west and horizontal oriented stamps, and east stamps with non serif? With only a few exceptions that are attached to a few horizontal stamps?

If that connection has not been covered before, why the heck is it being swept under the rug by some? If it has, and it was debunked already, then I will shut up about it and go away on this one!

They attempt to try and give credit to Johnson, based on opinions, observations that can be refuted with counter examples as Jack has successfully done. But pay attention, don't be deceived on this simple fact.

A statement was made by an expert on the other forum that was meant to counter our observations. He obviously has in his possession pictures of east facing RMK stamped brown button sheaths with heiseresque serif number stamps, or, west facing RMK stamped brown button sheaths with Johnsonesque non serif number stamps. Stay tuned for that revelation, and I do hope he is reminded from time to time to present them.

Thanks
Sam G
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Last edited by samg; 04-03-2015 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:07 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samg View Post
I
These are a few. Let's explore those differences.

Thanks

Sam
Lets not explore those. Let the person who posted that those are identifiable traits of Johnson, and that those traits are not present in Heiser and Heiser-H-K-L, post his case, complete with dozens of examples etc.

If you start a line about every imaginary trait someone can think up you will be doing their work and monopolizing this board. The Grand Unification case has been made complete with hundreds of examples. No counter case has been made, just completely unsubstantiated opinions.

Sam, you will get no counter discussion on this board. Even in the Randall community as a whole, all but two, three of vintage Randall collectors are on board. Those few are making increasingly fanciful and undocumented declarations that are degrading their credibility rapidly. I suggest just let it alone. Case has been made. Let someone else un-make it first.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-07-2015 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:27 PM
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samg samg is offline
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You know Jack, I think you are absolutely right about that! Hadn't quite thought about it that way.
I stand corrected. What a breath of fresh air!

Jack, thanks for all of your research and good eye in these projects, and Ron, for all of your contributions over the years. You both have contributed much to Randall knife history.
Regards
Sam G

Last edited by samg; 04-04-2015 at 10:39 AM.
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