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  #1  
Old 01-26-2016, 11:48 AM
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Early 12-8 acquisition

I recently acquired this beautiful 12-8 that I believe is from 1964-65 era.














The seller stated that the leg tie down was available until 1967. With the absence of sheath model stamps, I believe the sheath to be made just after Johnson converted to baby dot snaps, perhaps 1964, which is the year the Bear Bowie became available.


Using Jacks research, it seems that the stamp falls in the 1964 period as well. The stamp on the 12-8 matches the top left example in Jacks photo that is from '63-'65




This stamp is from my early 12-8



This knife very much resembles the earlier Sun Valley Patrol knife illustrated on page 213 of Gaddis' book. When the Bear Bowie was introduced in 1964 the hilt was changed to the curved style.



I would appreciate any opinions dating of this knife.
Also, any idea what wood the handle may be? I see Ebony, and also Rosewood. It definitely has some brown graining which Ebony can have. It's also very smooth which Ebony can have.
My thought is that the original owner went to the expense of the custom sheath, all the brass hardware, and the initial plate. So if he upgraded to the max, Ebony wood be a good choice. I assume ivory was available then too, but perhaps the buyer wasn't into ivory. Just a theory.
In indoor light, the handle looks black. Only in bright light or sunlight do you see the brown graining in it.

Regards, Samg

Last edited by samg; 01-26-2016 at 12:59 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2016, 02:50 PM
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Sam, I really like the Bear and thought about bidding on it, but it isn't exactly in the center of my collecting target and I already have a nice BB from about 1970. Congratulations on acquiring it.

I looked this one over very carefully when it was posted. I concur that it is 1964-early 1966... probably 1965 is a good mid point. The hex nut could be a marker for pre-1971 or so but that is not a given. The stamp is definite type 2, pre-early/mid 1966 at latest. The sheath is consistent to early time...1964 or so perhaps even earlier but Bear Bowies were not catalogued until I think 1964.

The sheath is without number markings on back = early baby dot. (One caveat is that on bowies, the adding of the number/model markings on the back of the sheath was a bit more haphazard than on other knives...I speculate that was because it was hard to confuse a bowie sheath with one for some other model) The collar and the flanged butt cap embrasures are a bit finer and more regular than some from this time period but they are constructed by using simple lines which is generally consistent (but not an absolute).

It is hard to tell the color of the escutcheon plate. The earliest brass plate I've seen is late 1965. Before that they were almost invariably silver regardless of the other components. Brass was catalogued in 1965 or so but that doesn't mean it wasn't being used earlier. This one looks brass which would tend to move it to late 1965-early 1966. One more thing. I haven't done the deep research, but the pixilation of the letters on the escutcheon plate is a style that I THINK could be associated with the mid 1960s or so. Please take that as an impression, not an avowal.

One thing that makes this a knife a bit different for the time period is what looks to be the rosewood handle. Really nice piece of wood, which itself was a little special for 1965. I guess it could be ebony but that would take an examination. All in all, I think you did very well and 1964-66 is very likely correct. The one Bear Bpwie I own is the one people almost invariably are drawn to when they look at my little accumulation. Below is bad picture of my Bear and a matching fighting stiletto.



Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:38 PM
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Thanks Jack for your response.
That is a beautiful handle on your knife. Is it Amboyna Burl?

The escutcheon plate on this knife is nickel silver.

You are right, the scalloping of the collar and flanged butt cap is finer than what appears on the Sun Valley Patrol knife. Something else for me to research.

As to the handle, here is a clearer picture of the wood, and the nickel silver escutcheon plate. Rosewood or Ebony?

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  #4  
Old 01-26-2016, 03:53 PM
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Sam, showing the silver plate will cause me to estimate your knife date a bit earlier, to 1964-65. After the brass plate option was introduced, in very short order most knives ordered with an escutcheon plate opted for brass. I've found it can be hard to tell a brass plate from silver in a photo, which is why I quibbled. Don't really know why... it may be an optical illusion.. the eye wants to make the plate the color of the hardware.

In any case, very nice knife, you did well. I think the handle is rosewood from the picture but am not a wood expert, only an observer who likes wood. Mine is a walnut of some sort, but the two look nice together. Re: collar and flanged butt cap scalloping... I covered this in the "dating a Bowie" line. Regards.

Oh.. the "Sun Valley" knives were the predecessors of the Bear Bowies but were longer and wider. They are also 1961-2 or so, significantly earlier. Not many around that I know of. I tend to regard them as separate from the Bears, but they are good for looking at hardware progression. Rocky had one and posted the pictures a couple of times... which I copied of course.

Last edited by Jacknola; 01-26-2016 at 04:02 PM.
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  #5  
Old 01-26-2016, 04:40 PM
thevalueman thevalueman is offline
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post them up!!
I have not quite figured how to post photo's here, I would not be offended if you took the opportunity to post up the photo's.
It's a beautiful knife, as is this one...very similar, but different.
:-)Rocky
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:53 PM
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I've never seen a walnut with orange tones. Went on line and found this. Called Turkish walnut.
In the '60, the shop offered the Indian Rosewood, so why not Turkish walnut. Not positive that it's that, as there are so many strains of each wood and burls.



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Old 01-26-2016, 05:39 PM
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I have found an early example of the narrower scalloped flanged brass buttcaps on the 1959 King Faisal Bowies. So we know they were made that early.
Interesting on Pete Hamilton's book, the Arkansas toothpick has the thinner scallop, and the Thorpe has the wider scallop, as we see on the Sun Valley Patrol knife.




Last edited by samg; 01-26-2016 at 05:43 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-26-2016, 06:09 PM
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Sam, I'm pretty sure that case is either a fake or the knives in it are replacements. The so called price tags are probably fake too. I'm not even sure felt tip pens were around in the 1950s if that is what was used to write with, which is what it looks like. In any case the so called prices do not fit any catalogue.

I discussed this case, tags, and a couple of knives, I think these, at length on the other forum just before being asked to leave. I presented a lengthy analysis showing the knives were late 60s, early 70s. Nothing on those knives, not a single feature speaks 1950s. Everything including blade stamp, spacers, etc., says 1970. I know you can't search over there, but try a google search you may find my posts.

Joe initially wanted to date them to the 1950s based on the price tags and wanted people to compare the prices to early catalogues... however nothing would compute at all. In the end, I think he agreed with me on the age estimate, which was amazing but gratifying.

Last edited by Jacknola; 01-26-2016 at 06:19 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:46 PM
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Hi Rocky
Here are pics of your Sun Valley Patrol knife.
Could you tell us about it? Thanks





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  #10  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:19 PM
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Jack
That's amazing about those knives in the case. I will look that up.
Part of the fun, researching these knives.
Thanks again Jack for your help.
Samg
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  #11  
Old 01-26-2016, 09:50 PM
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Here are some more pictures of Rocky's Sun Valley. This shows something unique... the use of a slotted recessed or reverse tang nut on a knife from the late 1950s. I only know of two examples of Randall knives using this system to secure the handle until the shop generally adopted a variant of the system in about 1972.

Why Mr. Randall tried this system and then rejected it is unknown as it has some favorable characteristics. I discussed this in the "dating a Randall Bowie line" part of which I transferred from the other board before ... good foresight.







Sam the guy trying to sell that case and those knives is pretty outrageous. His claims are also comical. If I can find a link to the other line I'll post it. After I was asked to leave, I deleted some pictures I had posted in that line out of childish pique though. Oh well...

Last edited by Jacknola; 01-26-2016 at 10:02 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2016, 10:37 PM
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The reverse tang nut may have been too labor intensive to offer it on a production knife. Much easier and cost effective to just put a nut on the butt cap. Just a thought.
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2016, 06:37 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Sam / Jack: Great exchange of Randall info! I wish I had something more to contribute, but I don't. You guys are the bomb!
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:25 AM
thevalueman thevalueman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevalueman View Post
post them up!!
I have not quite figured how to post photo's here, I would not be offended if you took the opportunity to post up the photo's.
It's a beautiful knife, as is this one...very similar, but different.
:-)Rocky
Well, I wish I could tell everybody how the knife can to be, but it's not possible. At the request of my dad, and his knowledge of my eBay experience, he asked if I could help one of his old friends widow sell her knives on the bay. Her husband collected Randall, and I think turned my dad on the them as well. This was in the late 50's I guess, judging from the knives that he, and my dad had....well after selling most of them, I'm left with this "thing"...I did not no what to make of it....I had the books, but did not put it together until I listed on the bay....shortly, a fellow collector emailed me, and directed me to page 213 of Gaddis's book...I yanked it from eaby, sent it to Perry Miller, got authentication #44 from Perry, put it back in her remaining inventory, where it sat for a few years, waiting for values to come back....well a couple ago she contacts me, and wants me to move the rest of the knives, and at the same time she gives me the Sun Valley knife for my trouble....I never charged her for selling any of the knives, she was old, needed the money....not much of a story, but there it is... I suspect that her husband, Oliver, just stumbled in to the shop one day, when that knife was laying around, and bought it from Bo....I think that we all know, that Bo would sell just about anything.....in Perry's comments, he states that "I have seen several Randall's with this type of guard"....I have not
:-)Rocky
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:51 AM
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To set the record straight on those historic King Faisal Bowie's that I was incorrect on in an earlier post, here is a set made in the 1950's as they appear in Pete Hamilton's book



Here is another set displayed on the cover of Pete's book.



My focus right now is the scalloped brass on these knives and trying to come up with some kind of timeframe. The earlier Bowie's from the '50's, and as we have seen on the Sun Valley Patrol knife, the predecessor to the Bear Bowie, the scalloping of the collar and flanged butt cap is spaced further apart than what we see today.
The King Faisal Bowie's scallops are wide.

Looking at the two Bowie's on the cover of Pete's book, the 2 knives have different spacing of the scallops.
Here is the Thorp Bowie, notice the type 2 stamp, which dates it pre 1966 according to Jacks research, and the scallop spacing is narrower on the hilt collar than on the butt cap.



On the Arkansas toothpick, we see a post 1966 type 3 stamp, and narrower spacing on the scallops.



So it seems that the scallop spacing started wide in the '50's and began narrowing in the 60's, to the thin spacing we begin seeing in late 60's, early 70's.
Could be better technique or more precision tools at the shop.
What do you think Jack?

Regards, Samg
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