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  #91  
Old 04-20-2016, 09:29 AM
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04-16-2016, 10:49 PM by Jacknola

I looked around and on this site I found this line with a nice picture. It shows an etched Orlando blade from early 1960s, and etched Solingen blade. Obviously, the etched logo is different from the M-14 subject.. but it is also different from Bills Bowie logo.







The line referenced above had some good discussion about logos and some pictures of a Springfield that had been refurbished at the shop and had those seemingly vertical grind marks. Still, the grind lines on the M-14 make it look like it was not forged but created by stock removal... just don't know enough about knife construction to judge that.

But no one has done a study of etched logos so far as I know. I started one, but never got enough data to get into details. Anyway, here is what I think we know about etched logos on Orlando blades.

Outsourced etching was used by Randall from early 1940s and the same company did it for Randall until he acquired his own Pantograph machine and acid bath equipment in 1960-61. After that, Randall shop did their own etching. I don't know if the Randall logo was etched early-on by the out-source company, or just names and letters.. but it certainly could have been.

After Randall acquired his own equipment, a number of interesting logo etchings were seen including the different etchings on the second batch of model 17s ever made. But since no study has been made attempting a time line of etched logos, any statements about what was done and when is problematic.

After looking at the logos, the logo on the 14 might be suspect. The scimitars just look a little sloppy. It almost looks like the scimitars were added later... Just the etched letters would have a precedent. But...

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:16 PM.
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  #92  
Old 04-20-2016, 09:30 AM
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04-18-2016, 12:15 PM by Jacknola

I'm finally convinced that this is probably a counterfeit knife. But what a counterfeit!

Here is evidence from the etched logo. I had collected four examples of etched Orlando blades some years ago. They all pretty much exhibit the same fonts, spacing, and letter characteristics. (Note that they are all from mid-late 1960s however.) The subject Model-14 varies significantly from the standard mostly in the scimitar shape and location. So unless the early 1960s etched logo had a different pantographic image, the logo is counterfeit. The letters are remarkably good however, which means someone had a pantograph and acid bath and knew how to use them.



I've included some notes about the characteristics of legitimate mid-late 1960s etched logos for handy reference. I've also included some questions about etched logos on the slide.

The shop was having blades out-sourced etched beginning in 1943, but mostly (?) names and letters. When the shop relocated in 1960-61, they acquired their own pantograph and etching equipment and continued to deliver blades with etched letters.

When did the shop first etch a logo, or have a logo etched by outsource? Unfortunately, "conventional wisdom" about many things related to vintage RMKs has not proven to be very accurate. I'm looking for ... say ... an obviously 1940s, 50s or pre 1960s RMK with an etched logo on the blade. We know the Randall Made/Solingen etched logos first showed up about 1963 (?). Is this the earliest that an Orlando blade received an etched logo too?
HELP...looking for a little help here.. just opinions are welcome, facts, deductions also wanted..

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4-19-2016 06:02 AM
BoBlade
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Great info, Jack. With the comparison pics y
ou posted, the scimitars are clearly out of position!

I can't recall seeing any etched logos from the 40's or 50's. It seems to me that the shop just double stamped a knife if the first strike was light. Maybe someone else has seen one.

Best,

Ron

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:17 PM.
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  #93  
Old 04-20-2016, 09:31 AM
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4-19-2016, 01:36 PM by Jacknola

About the counterfeit, what I don't understand is that given the effort that went into this counterfeit knife, and the use of a pantograph and acid bath, why didn't the maker use an actual Randall made etched logo as the icon image? Well, maybe when this knife was made there were no Randall etched logos? ... but I doubt it. It seems like he just failed at the last hurdle.

About the date of etched logos, I'm have a sense that the Randall-made/Solingen etched logo appeared in mid-1963 on the first re-order of Solingen blades. So I would guess the Orlando etched logo was available then too. The two logos certainly were very close except for the substitution of the word "Solingen."



What I don't know is if knives earlier than 1963 had an etched logo. Randall acquired their own pantograph and acid bath equipment in 1960-61 (Gaddes) so a lot of the odd-etchings (see second batch, model 17) about that time were probably done in-house. Of course beginning in 1943 lots knives were etched with names and initials by the out-source, but I just don't know about logos. It would seem reasonable that some knives 1940s-50s would have had etched logos, but don't know any examples at this time...and therefore don't know what the pantograph icon image would have been.

It is easy to change pantograph icon images so many things are possible. This could be an interesting study. If you run across any strange looking etchings on old knives, lets collaborate in reviewing them. I've asked Bill to keep his eyes open too. Regards, Jack

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:18 PM.
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  #94  
Old 04-20-2016, 09:32 AM
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4-19-2016, 01:36 PM by Jacknola

Looking into etched logos a little further? here is one of the earliest I?ve seen. It is on Steve?s knife, a replica of General Westmoreland?s. We would probably be safe to assume the original light stamp was polished off during finishing and an etched logo substituted. The ?SS? would indicate late 1963 or early 1964.






This is a knife that I have tried to imagine as having a unique etched logo. Obviously the pantograph icon is different from all the others etched logos we?ve examined? and it looks like a type 2 logo?except for the scimitars which are cartoonish and don?t seem to match the stamps of the era very well. The knife is definitively dated to last half of 1962 by the Johnson brown button sheath, east facing with no model numbers. (Note: on second look, stamped scimitar on the right of this logo looks very much like the faintly stamped one on Steve's knife above... so this is probably not an etched logo.)





Looking further into this, here is a 1963 12-9 I own. The stamp and scimitars are the same as the above knife from approximately the same era... proof that is a stamp, not etch logo. Oh well... nice try.

12-9 stamp


Just for grins, here is the etched logo on the ?most expensive belt buckle in the world? that was recently discussed. It seems to have the same pantograph image as all the knives examined so far.


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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  #95  
Old 04-21-2016, 12:24 PM
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This is a long essay that reaches conclusions about etched logos...if this is already well known, excuse the re-hash. TBill initiated this study in a PM asking if etched logos preceded the 1963 catalog. Ron helped with thoughts about pre-1960 knives.

For starters, I found another SS Orlando blade with an etched logo that Steve posted a couple of times. (Edit: upon review, this is probably the same blade shown above). So it is definitive that the Orlando logo was being etched by late 1963 or so.



Subject to ?work-in-progress? information, we can make some probable deductions. No evidence has been found (yet) of etched logos on Orlando blades pre-late 1963. There is some evidence that some Randall-Solingen logos were etched in 1963. These etched logos were presumably on the second batch of Solingen M-14s ordered and delivered that year from Germany. (However, the older stamped-ricasso Solingen blades continued to be used as seen in the photos of the original M-18s in Gaddes and other examples, see below.)



According to Gaddes, Randall acquired their own pantograph and acid bath in 1960-1961 ? presumably after the shop moved to more spacious digs in 1960. So what can we deduce from examing these two Astros that were surely made in June/July 1960?





1. The letters are etched, but the complete Randall logo was not put on the blade. Why?

2. Most likely these were part of the second batch of 20 Astros knives delivered July, 1960. They were made from re-ground Solingen blades that were so completely altered the original horizontal "Solingen" stamping on the ricasso was ground off or removed when the stainless hilts were arc-welded to the carbon blades. (If they had been Orlando blades, they would have had the stamped logo as the original eight knives had). The shop then had the blades letter-etched but did not identify them as Solingen factory blades, only "Randall Made."

3. It seems probable that the shop did not etch a full Randall logo on these blades because the pantograph icon to be traced had not yet been developed at that time (Mid-1960)? hence just lettering was etched, which had been commonly used since 1943.

4. Therefore, from the lack of etched logo on these knives, we can assume that prior to 1960 no etched logos had been put on RMKs. If there were a precedent for an etched logo prior to 1960, the shop would likely have used that logo icon on the Astros rather than simple lettering.

5. The need for an etched logo was probably first evident about the time of the receipt of the second order for 500 Solingen blades in 1963. This batch of Solingens were probably not stamped with either ?Randall-made? or ?Solingen, Germany? on the ricasso? only stamped with ?Stainless.?

Example of 2nd batch, Solingen ?Stainless? blade-blanks, probably delivered in 1963.





It seems possible that at first the shop thought of etching these blanks with simple lettering to identify the new Solingen blades...as had been done on the M-17 Astros.

Example W-Germany (I wonder if at some point some factory blades were not made in Solingen, so had to be marked "W. Germany?)





But I think we can agree that this was not esthetically pleasing, so the Randall shop developed the etched logo pantograph ... all because of the lack of identification on the new Solingen 14 blades received in 1963.

From the above reasoning and pending additional evidence, the first etched logos of any type were in 1963 on Solingen 14-15 blades. The use of logo etching was then expanded in late 1963 to include Orlando blades whose stamped logos were too light.

And that is where I stand now on M-14 (and other models) etched logos. As always, I'm open to opinions, data, and theories or outright rebuttals. Why do I do this? I like studying and analyzing questions, and I like having some idea of the context of what I'm looking at and collecting. Thanks to Bill for prompting this analysis and to Ron for his input.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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  #96  
Old 04-21-2016, 03:38 PM
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I must be in the beginning stages of Alzheimer's.

During the "Magic Randall" line and the development of the Heiser-Johnson Grand Unification Theory about sheaths, Ronnie sent me some pictures of a knife, documented to a dealer, who acquired it in 1959 or so. Of course given the direction of that discussion, the sheath of this knife was the focus at the time. In any case, the dealer, Mr. York, had extensively altered the blade, grinding it down making it much thinner ... and in the process he ground off the Randall logo.

Ronnie sent the knife to the shop to have the logo etched on, and inquired about other restorative options. He received a letter from Mr. Gary Randall stating unequivocally that Randall did not offer the etched trademark option until the 1960s.

Looks like I could have saved myself some effort. Oh well... it was good to imagine the circumstances and visualize the choices the shop made back then...


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:23 PM.
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  #97  
Old 04-21-2016, 05:31 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Well that helps out greatly! I'm surprised that they would even consider etching the logo on the altered knife period. And as far as hurting the collector value by doing so, I would think the altered blade shape probably already contributed to that......
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  #98  
Old 04-21-2016, 05:46 PM
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Bill, the shape wasn't altered much, mostly just the thickness of the blade. I don't think the etched logo hurts the knife value at all... it enhances it. Why? Ronnie has the ultimate "authentication" paper available... a letter from Gary Randall himself declaring this a 1950s blade that has been altered, but re-trademarked by etching at the shop. And it notes the chain of custody to Mr. York, a Randall dealer in the 1950s. That letter is definitive what the knife is and its provenance.







In the "Magic Randall" page 8, I opine that this is the oldest documented knife in a Heiser -west stamp (HKL) sheath, dated in 1959... As such it helps define when the Heiser trade mark was supplanted by the Randall-made.

What I'm enjoying is that we got to the conclusion about etched trademarks by deductive analysis, even sharpened the equation... and the conclusion was spot-on; confirmed by that letter from Gary Randall. It gives me confidence in other deductions.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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  #99  
Old 04-26-2016, 11:31 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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Very good stuff Jack.
Ronnie
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  #100  
Old 08-09-2016, 09:35 AM
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Did I need another vintage M-14 S Solingen Vietnam era knife in riveted sheath? Uhhhh.. nope. Did I want this one when it appeared in an obscure on-line auction for the (bargain (?) approximate) price of a new M-14? Uhh... yep. Actually there are some instructive things about this 1970-72 Solingen to compare to my documented 1968 model of the same genre. Note the stones, also note the sheath dyes and paracords.



Here are the two knives, my newly acquired one probably vintage about 1970-72, the other (previously posted) documented to 1968.









First is the stone - the 1968 vintage has an odd 2 7/8-in x 1-in x 1/4-in stone compared to the standard 3-in x 7/8-in x 3/8-in. I think the odd sized stone could be the original because the leather of the pocket has been permanently stretched to accommodate the wider stone. Of course this stone could have been an early replacement ... but it's odd sized nature is still interesting especially if other stones of this type are found.

"So what?"... you say? All data has its uses. If this odd-sized stone is original, it could help indicate the emergency measures the shop was forced to adopt when Norton suddenly ceased making the two-grit stone in the late '60s. And though the first-in last-out nature of the use of stones is strongly suspected, it could indicate when replacement stones were being used given the documented date of the knife. Of course that conclusion would be useful only if this is indeed the original stone.

Additional confirmed data points - my brother's identical Solingen-S model 14 (see previously posted above) that he received in Vietnam in April 1968 had the "Soft Arkansas - Made in US of A" white stone - at least that is what he remembers, though the stone is long lost. My Vietnam-carried model 14 Solingen-S received about May 1967 while I was still at Fort Bragg had Norton two grit yellow paint stone - best I remember, the knife and stone were lost. The above model 14 Solingen-S with the odd sized stone shown compared to my new acquisition in this post is documented to May 1968. Documented data points have value.











Re: sheath dye. The 1970-72 knife has what I think is a shop dyed sheath. The reason I infer that is the leather is completely dyed in the interior of the belt loop (though not in the interior of the knife pocket). This tends to indicate the leather was probably dyed before final construction. The 1968 knife on the other hand has un-dyed natural leather in the interior belt loop with dye runs on the edges. This would tend to indicate it was dyed after the sheath was finished, probably in theater by using shoe polish dye.

Note the rather crappy "painted" look of the back of the presumably shop-dyed sheath (1970-72 vintage). This is one reason I think the shop dyed sheaths were not popular... The other being the dye was not fast ... in other words, it ran (and I'm not referring to speed or racing).

Though I didn't take pictures of dye job of the two sheath's interior leather I'll add them later.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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  #101  
Old 08-10-2016, 07:35 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Jack,

"For the (bargain approximate) price of a new M14". Jolly good show, Sir! Bargains like that don't happen very often.

That stone has me scratching my head! Did you measure the width of the pocket vs. your other? I think the odds are that the pocket was not made to fit the stone. In that case it would have taken considerable time and effort to enlarge the pocket to fit. Probably less than it would have taken to wear away the width of the stone.
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  #102  
Old 08-10-2016, 09:16 AM
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Yep Ron, I guess this vintage 14 was a bargain. ... I put in an extreme low ball because I didn't need the knife, and ... well... it is summer and this was primarily a gun auction. This was one of only a few knives in the auction lots and the only vintage one. I was surprised to win it but I'll take it.

Question: we have always assumed that Randall shop provided the stones. Is this a proper assumption? Is it possible that Johnson ordered and provided the stones with the sheaths he sent up? Shop-supplied/inserted stone has always been referenced, but I wonder about the proof of it?

Re: Stone. The pocket is the same width on both knives to the mm and stitch (9-stitches wide). The stone was seemingly just jammed in and the leather conformed, as best I can judge. Notice a picture in the previous post of the knives/sheaths taken at bottome angle. Notice the misshapen stone pocket which seems to indicate the stone was inserted at slight angle to allow it to fit into the sheath.

I think this was/is a readily available commercial stone maybe provided with Boy Scout Case knives or something. I could imagine the shop purchasing some in emergency when supplies of normal-size were low. My impression of the shop during this time period is that shipping product was the priority and detail nice-ities such as whether the owner could get the stone out of the pocket easily were secondary.

I have found pictures of two stones that looked similar, but no guarantee they were the same, or were original. Here is one of them.

Wide stone



Stones are terribly unreliable for knife dating purpose...to many lost or replaced

The dye on the two sheaths is different. The newer is inferior. Nevertheless I think it may be the shop supplied Johnson-dyed sheath (though both or neither may be...no science has been done, just opinions expressed). Here are pictures inside the belt loop of the two sheaths, and inside the knife pocket. Note the newer sheath has the interior of the belt loop leather dyed (which I take to mean leather was dyed before assembly) while the older one shows natural leather with sloppy runs of dye on edges - which I infer to mean the leather was dyed after assembly.

Note also that the inside of the punch holes in the newer sheath are undyed, which I take to mean the leather was dyed prior to the holes being punched, and the back shows flaking, almost like a bad paint job. No wonder "shop supplied" black-dyed sheaths were not popular.

Loop dye



The inside of the knife pocket on both sheaths is un-dyed, but the older one again exhibits runs.


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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  #103  
Old 08-11-2016, 12:39 PM
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This may be the odd-sized stone used. These were available in the '60s (?) and still are available. Shop could have picked up some in emergency situation, or it could have been an early replacement.


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-28-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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  #104  
Old 08-12-2016, 05:52 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Jack,

Regarding your question: To my knowledge, Clarence Moore was the only sheathmaker who would typically provide the stone. The stone that was most prevalent during the time that Clarence was making sheaths was the "Norton Soft Arkansas". These stones were not sized identical and varied in length, width and thickness from stone to stone. Many times one of these stones would not fit the pocket of another sheath that originally housed a different Soft Arkansas stone. In Clarence's case, he made a custom sheath to fit both the actual knife and the stone. There was no guesswork. In the case of other sheathmakers such as Heiser, the pocket was patterned to accommodate the largest of the stones.

Best,
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  #105  
Old 08-12-2016, 07:26 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Ron,

On the opposite side of the spectrum, that would explain why some stones seem to swim inside a Hieser or Johnny Johnson pocket? You can turn the sheath upside down and it will fall out in your hand.
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