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  #1  
Old 07-19-2016, 03:20 PM
CharlieR CharlieR is offline
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Info please on this Randall

Would appreciate any info the forum could share regarding this Randall I just acquired. I do not know what model it is or the approximate year of production.It supposedly belonged to a vet at one time. There is a name stamped on the blade opposite the makers mark-was this done in the factory? Again, any info you care to share would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2016, 03:47 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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My opinion....

Your knife appears to be a vintage model 11-??. The questions marks are about the length of blade. Usually on the back of the sheath you will find two numbers. The first is the model number, the second is the length of the blade. Therefore if the back of your sheath has 11-4 1/2, it means the sheath was for a model 11 knife with a 4 1/2-inch blade.

Your knife has seven spacers (between the hilt and the handle) which dates the knife earlier than the early 1970s. The blade stamp appears to be a "type-2" (possibly a "type 1," need higher resolution) which stopped being used possibly in 1965, certainly by early 1966. Sheath has "baby-dot" snaps which only began being used about the start of 1963.

All in all, from the information presented, this knife is an 11-xx, probably made/sold between 1963 and 1966. Note that "made" and "sold" can be different dates but for our purpose, let's assume they are approximately the same date.

There are other clues that could be used to help narrow the date of your knife. If there is a sharpening stone, it might help date the package, though stones have been so frequently changed that they are not a reliable guide. The markings on the back of the sheath could help. If there are no model or length numbers stamped on the back, the sheath could well have been made during a six-month period, first half of 1963 (this "indicator" may not be an absolute with these smaller knives). If there are model and length numbers on the back, that just means the sheath probably was made after mid-1963 or so.

Nice knife.

Regards.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-19-2016 at 04:58 PM.
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  #3  
Old 07-19-2016, 03:54 PM
CharlieR CharlieR is offline
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Blade length is 4-5/8. There are no other markings on back of sheath other than maker mark. There is a stone with the sheath.
Any info about the name stamped on the blade?
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  #4  
Old 07-19-2016, 04:04 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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I don't see a pic of the reverse side of the knife with a name etched?
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  #5  
Old 07-19-2016, 04:32 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Not sure how a 4 5/8-in blade would be styled. Probably would be called an 11-5 for sheath purpose. The lack of model and length numbers would tend to date this sheath fairly precisely to the first half of 1963. But as I've indicated, it is not an absolute for two reasons:

1. It is possible that these smaller knives sometimes did not have identifying stamps for a longer period...

2. The sheath may have been made in a batch and not sold with a knife for a couple of years.

However, there is a particular characteristic of the stitching of your sheath that makes me think it is more likely to be "earlier" rather than "later." Summary: if you wanted to claim your knife was made and sold in 1963, no one could really argue. The date is almost certainly between 1963 and 1966.

Name acid-etching was usually done by the shop as a popular option. But sometime people had outside agencies engrave their knife using various techniques. Without seeing the engraving I couldn't opine, but I would assume it was done by the shop. I have often done an "obit" search for the name on a knife and had good luck winnowing down to a likely original owner.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-19-2016 at 04:34 PM.
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  #6  
Old 07-19-2016, 06:52 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I have two small corrections. Randall knives are not made in a factory...they don't take kindly to being called a factory. It is as Jack said, a shop...they make Randall Made Knives in a shop.
Jack the seven spacer arrangement did not cut off in 1970. It lived on into 71 and most likely into 72. I have posted a photo of a Model 23 seven spacer that I recently sold. 23's did not come out until 71 or 72. I can't remember for sure. Notice the 4th knife from the top. A beauty of an early 23.
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  #7  
Old 07-19-2016, 10:19 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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You are right on all accounts, except allow me to protest that I did not say 7 spacers ended "1970"... I said "dates the knife earlier than the early 1970s"... LOL. I like all your knives in the picture Ronnie...someday I might need that pinned ivory thingy...if I ever get off of Viet era combat knives, and/or Delrin. Regards.
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  #8  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:17 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Great exchanges, Guys. I love to see people being helped here.
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  #9  
Old 07-20-2016, 01:02 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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The information about the baby-dot Johnson sheaths WITHOUT model and length numbers is fully covered in the "Magic Randall" line, pages 7-8-9 so. The following excludes "split-back" sheaths per the discussion on the last page of the Magic Randall.

Prior to the start of 1959, Heiser stamped all sheaths with their own logo. After early 1959, Helser (HKL) ceased using their logo and began using the Randall logo. During the early '60s, Heiser (HKL) used brown buttons and stamped all their sheaths with model and length numbers... regardless of whether the "Randall Made" logo was oriented horizontally or facing "west."

In mid-late 1962, Johnson initially made some brown button sheaths, all with the Randall logo stamp oriented "east." None of his brown button sheaths had model numbers stamped on them. Johnson switched to using the baby-dot snaps in early 1963, but did not begin adding model and length stamps until mid-1963 or so.

The above is all proved. All the statements are based on documented knives, and many examples have been shown. If someone doesn't accept the above time-line it is either because he hasn't read the supporting data and thus just doesn't know, or has data that refutes it (in which case I suggest...post the data), or cannot accept a vintage-Randall fact discovered and proved by someone else.

The current discussion about General Westmoreland's knife is a case in point. The General's sheath was almost certainly made in 1963...because it has baby-dot snaps and no model/length numbers stamped. It DOES have model/length numbers faintly and crudely scratched by hand into the back, but not stamped. Those numbers were scratched into the leather after the sheath was made, probably at the shop. They were likely a shop added reference and a precursor to the addition of stamped numbers by Johnson.

Avowals to the contrary and claims that the sheath was "no earlier than 1964" are simply off base and made by people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they don't know much about the Vietnam era's knives.

Are there exceptions to the rule that no model numbers on Johnson baby-dots is indicative of first half 1963? Of course. Perhaps a sheath was overlooked when being stamped. Or...sheaths were usually made in batches. It is easily possible that a less popular model knife may have been given a sheath made much earlier. The opposite is also true. It is also possible that a knife made earlier sat unsold for a while until sheathed in a newer sheath. That supposition was the initial catalyst for the story of the "Magic-Randall."

As I've pointed out, there are three different dates associated with a Randall knife package.

(1) the date the blade was forged - indicated by blade stamp;
(2) the date the knife was finished - indicated by handle, hilt, hardware, spacers etc.
(3) the date the knife was shipped - could be indicated by sheath/stone, but note above exceptions.

However, for the sake of simplicity amalgamate the evidence, use some common sense, and you'll be right most of the time.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-20-2016 at 03:21 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:32 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I don't want this line to be one that points fingers, but it happens that the question of this nice little 11-5 sheath parallels the questions about General Westmoreland's elsewhere.

In a line about the General's knife, a person posted this: "The sheath was made in the mid 1960's, in my opinion, no farther back than about 1964." This is complete nonsense and the historical record for a knife as important as General Westmoreland (who was my General in Vietnam) deserves accuracy.

(1) General Westmoreland was appointed deputy to Paul Harkins January, 1964. He reported to Vietnam before that, probably in late 1963. There are pictures of him with his knife purported to date to very early 1964 upon his assuming the deputy MACV post. If his sheath was "no earlier than 1964," someone took it to him in Vietnam.

(2) There is no earthly way to identify a Johnson sheath "to the mid 1960s," nor is there ANY marker for those sheaths that correspond to "1964." Johnson type A sheaths were essentially identical from about mid-1963 to about 1972, including the stamps.

The person making this (and other) statements either is ignorant of the facts, mistaken, or is someone trying to pose as an expert about things he actually knows little about. Normally I would let this pass... but not about General Westmoreland who I thought the world of when I was in Vietnam, and still do.
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  #11  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:46 PM
Rick Bowles Rick Bowles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
Randall knives are not made in a factory
Bo Randall has been quoted as saying "General Motors has a factory, I have a knife shop".
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  #12  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:46 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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I have never seen numbers "scratched" into the sheaths that look exactly like the ones I hand-stamp a "R" for a replacement sheath...but you guys have done a whole lot more research than I have...
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:55 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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What I find interesting is the placement of the numbers themselves. I don't believe that I have ever owned a sheath with numbers within the butterfly stitch.

What I DO have are some well used sheaths (such as the Model 5 sheath) were the stamps are much more shallow as a result.
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Last edited by Ta2bill; 07-20-2016 at 08:59 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:02 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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I agree Bill, the location of the numbers are where I have never seen them placed before, but they're still hand-stamped, not scratched in...
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2016, 10:12 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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My apologies Jack I could have sworn you said "dates the knife to earlier than 1970."
Ronnie
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